Forum Właścicieli i Miłośników Owczarków Staroangielskich

patrycja · Gość

W ramach 20 Euro-OES-Show odbyło się jak zwykle seminarium poświęcone naszym pieskom, jego efektem jest raport, który trafił do większości hodowli europejskich. Wklejam go poniżej, ponieważ jest dosyć długi za co z góry przepraszam, ale moim zdaniem warto się z nim zapoznać:

At the 22e EURO-OES-SHOW organised by the BOESC on 30 and 31 May 2009 was as usual a seminar.
The title of the seminar was : “Concerning the OES”, and was leaded by Eef ter Mors.

Speakers on this seminar were
Birgitte Schot (DK) Responsibilities and opportunities for breeders.
Ray Owen Responsibilities and opportunities for judges.
Eef ter Mors Responsibilities and opportunities for commitee members.

Before this seminar a worldwide survey was held under lovers, breeders, judges of the breed.
The first question was :

1. MOST IMPORTANT OF MY OES IS:
One have to choose 3 items out of:
Topline, Character, Soundness, Movement, Healt and feelgood, Type, Bones, seth of theet and coat.
Remarkable at this question was the different in answers between judges and breeders/lovers of the breed.
Breeders/lovers are choosing “an masse” as First for health,feel good and character.
Judges are often choosing at first for soundness and/of type.

This seems strange but this way of choosing is good and logic..
Breeders are responsible for the quality of the breed and priority one is of course health and character. Of course every breeder have also the ambition to breed the oes so typical as possible and with that thought in mind he chooses his breed animals.

Judges are not responsible for health and character of the breed. They are responsible for the judgement of the dogs who are entered on the show for a judgement comparing the breed standard. It is therefore not strange that they choose at first for soundness and type.
Of course, a judge is also often involved in the breed. He loves the breed to and for him is health and character very important as well.
Some health aspect can bee seen by the Judge such as serious deviation at the seth of theet, entropion, extropion and for instance limping during the movement. Also a-typical behaviour like aggression, reserved behaviour or fear can often be determined. Because of the importance of this points for the he/she must be very strict whit this.

2. NEVER AN “EXCELLENT” FOR AN AGRESSIVE, SCARED OR RESERVED OES.
More than 95% agreed with this posing.
A crystal clear call on the Judge to do something with it!

3. THE ACTUAL PROBLEMS IN THE BREED ARE:
High score for teeth, coat and cow hocks,
Middle score for dept of chest, pigmentation and eye colour

4. NOT AN “EXCELLENT”FOR DOGS WIT MEDICAL ABNORMALITYS, SUCH AS ENTROPION, EXTROPION. LIMPING OR SERIOUS ABNORMALITIES BY SET OF THEET.
The answer is clear. More than 95 % said that the Judge can not give an excellent.

5. THE BREED STANDARDS SAYS: “The natural outline should not be artificially changed by scissoring or clipping.”
Should the Judge do something with it ?
More than 90% said that the Judge have to punished that !!
• Give the dog an excellent but not the ticket
• Not an excellent
• Disqualification
• Only 8% said: “Ignore the clipping”.

Who is responsible for the clipping? Of course the breeders are! They are doing it. De next question is:” Who can stop the breeders if they don’t want to stop and still going on? The answer is: “Only the judges can stop this clipping and scissoring !” He/She have to judge according the breed standard and there is said very clear : “The natural outline should not be changed by scissoring or clipping”. It is an unattractive part of judging to put an very nice dog back because of the behaviour of an exhibitor but if a such big majority of breed lovers said that clipping and scissoring have to be stopped it must be a very strong urge for the judges to do something about it.

6.THE STANDARD IS CHANGED THE LAST YEARS BECAUSE OF THE DOG BAN IN A LOT OF COUNTRY’S. We have now different standards. How have the judges to judge the tail ?
By the rules of the FCI said about 40%
By the rules of the Kennel club England said about 40%
20% said Ignore the tail.

The tail is for a lot of people a big problem. In big parts of the world is not (yet) a dock ban and the oes lovers over there don’t want to talk about it. They not even wants to think about it.
For an (other) big part of the world is the dock ban a fact and oes-lovers have to deal with it. Governments have overruled the dog organisations and in that country’s the breeders are not know what they have to breed now.
If we let it go now than we get all kind of tails and all kind of tail carriage in the near future. Of course we are able to formulate how we think what kind of tail is the best for the oes. At this moment responsible people looking away. “Natural carriage” are empty words because nobody knows what natural is. We have to formulate what we want for the future. In the meantime we have to give of course the breeders time for making the real selections.

7. A BITCH MAY NOT BE MATED FOR HER FIRST LITTER AFTER THE AGE OF … MONTHS.
This question is misunderstood by a part of the participants of this survey. They give the minimum age for a bitch for her first litter. The question was the maximum age for the first litter.
As minimum age for the first litter most people said 24 months.
As maximum age for the first litter most people said 60 months.

8.IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO MATE A BITCH AFTER THE AGE OF ……. MONTHS.
30 % said 84 months and also 30% said 96 months.
A very view choose for an older age.

9. A BITCH CAN HAVE MAXIMAL ….. LITTERS IN A LIFETIME.
40% choose for 3 litters
30% for 4 litters and
20% for 5 litters.
10% for more or less.

10. DOES THE OES-CLUBS MUST HAVE, OR MAKE RULES FOR OBLIGED HEREDITARY EXAMINATIONS FOR BREED ANIMALS ?
98% said yes
2% said no.

10a. IF YES, NAME 3 OBLIGED HEREDITY EXAMINATIONS !
A majority choose for hips and eyes.
An other big part choose for hearing and elbow problems.
Other choices can be ignored.

11. SHOULD ALL RESULTS OF MEDICAL EXAMS ACCESSIBLE FOR EVERY BREEDER IN THE WORLD ?
Yes was the answer of more than 90%.

12. MUST WE HAVE WORLD WIDE ENDEAVOUR FOR IDENTICAL BREEDING RULES ???
80 % said Yes.

13. SHOULD SOMEBODY TAKE INITIATIVE FOR THE POINTS 11 AND 12 ?
More than 90% said YES

MAYBE YOU ????

Eef ter Mors

RESPONSIBILITIES OF A JUDGE
By Ray Owen, England

• WHO IS A JUDGE?
A judge in many cases has been an owner, breeder, committee member, exhibitor, official and a steward. Often involved in the breed, usually with a committed interest, and a deep love of the breed. So already there is a responsibility for the well-being, the long-term future and a desire for the breed to get stronger.
• WHAT IS A JUDGE?
How do we see the judge – like a referee at a football match, after the final whistle when our team has not won, the man we love to hate – the man who has to interpret the rules of the game.
• THE RULES
The rules of football are in this very thick book, the rules of cricket are in this very thick book, the rules of golf are in this very thick book, the rules of The Kennel Club are in this very thick book, – The rules of the Old English Sheepdog are in these 56 lines of type. I am holding up ‘The Breed Standard’ – this small piece of paper is the blueprint to producing the perfect specimen, how many of us have bred the perfect Bobtail – I’ve never seen it, and I have been all over the world in my 40 years of searching.
• INTERPRETATION
The answer lies in the interpretation of these few words, the knowledge you build up the dogs you have handled, and watched in the ring – the books you have read, the conversations had with fellow breeders, owners, and judges. We all have a mental picture of the perfect dog, but when it comes to judgement day do the judges bring this mental picture with them – there is, of course the scale of points to help the judge. In the original Breed Standard laid down by the newly formed Old English Sheepdog Club in 1888 the ‘weight’ or ‘stress’ or ‘importance’ of a particular point was given a percentage to help the breeder, owner or judge to consider the balance in achieving the perfect specimen.

• QUESTIONNAIRE
In the opening remarks today at this seminar Eef Ter Mors revealed the findings that he had received from over a hundred Bobtailers who filled in and returned his questionnaire on a variety of important issues. If you want to see the Survey then go to his website .

• MY INTERPRETATION
The results of the questionnaire had some interesting points, I filled it in and put TYPE as my main priority – for me it has to be type. Type equals typical. Typical is the mental picture. It has to be an OES FIRST. Type defines the breed, the race. Of course health is very important, as are all the other topics in the list so I need a typical healthy OES winning my class. Perhaps we should call it soundness. Sound in mind and body and that covers temperament as well.

• RESPONSIBILITY FOR HEALTH
Of course all these points are obvious to a judge, but “health” is in the hands of the breeder first and then the owners. Perhaps some small responsibility falls on the committee members who make breeding rules. But it’s not the first responsibility of a judge. You cannot expect a judge to be a vet, 3 minutes is a short enough time to evaluate the dog’s finer points, a medical examination could take hours, and it is dangerous for a judge to dismiss a dog on a health issue unless the dog is obviously “unsound”.

• THE TAIL OF THE OES
What is obvious is the tail – what do you do about it as a judge? I answered the questionnaire honestly – and I ignore the tail. We had a seminar at this show a few years ago and we agreed it would take 20 years for the breeding programmes to settle down and produce a tail carriage that we could rely on and accept. Some have already accepted the tail, some never will. I choose to ignore the tail as the various breed standards all say different things and even the English Kennel Club has gone almost full circle by stating “natural carriage” which means almost anything is accepted.

• WHAT’S GOING ON AT THIS MOMENT.
The English Kennel Club were badly shaken by a TV programme last year when Panorama a very respectable investigative journalism series looked at some breeds and their exaggerated features. They pointed to the Bulldog, the Cavalier King Charles, Basset Hound and as a direct result of this programme the KC looked at all Breed Standards and intend to remove any wording that promotes exaggeration.
All Breed Standards owned by the English Kennel Club are under review until June 2009. Some of us have written to the Kennel Club making our feelings known and we hope the changes to our Breed Standard are small, as the Breed has stayed true to type since 1888.

• WHAT TO DO ?
So a “profuse coat” will be removed as words from the OES standard. I hope that some exhibitors do not interpret this as a freedom to strip, clip or excessively trim. The heavy coat worn by our breed makes it a good challenge for the judge to use his hands and feel his way over the dog and to only use his eyes to confirm what the hands are saying. Most exhibitors are very good at presentation and can give their OES a super outline but the judge must get in there and feel for the correct construction and confirm that excellent rise to the loins is on the dog and not in the coat manipulation. This is true of angulation in the rear end and the sweep of stifle and correct hocks, all can be brushed into shape by a clever handler, but how many judges bend their backs and get down there to find out for themselves by feeling the anatomy in a thorough way. My own observations as a keen historian of the breed are that coats are now longer and softer, necks are shorter and overall size is slightly smaller. With falling entries and a smaller gene pool we must encourage breeders and exhibitors with our own honesty and integrity, give positive reports on the dogs we judge with encouragement and good communication so exhibitors enjoy their day out and come back next week to show again.

• WHAT IS GOOD JUDGING ?
When I was playing football and now when I watch on the television I admire the referees who whisper a word in the ear of the players, not showing a yellow card as a warning, or God forbid, wave the red card and kick them off the field. I would rather convert this red card to a red first prize card. Time up- whistle blown.

Please note – those that are reading this after the event, much discussion went on and views were expressed from the floor and some good points were made and serious debate took place during and after the talk.

THE OLD ENGLISH SHEEPDOG TO-DAY AND TO-MORROW
By :Birgitte Schjoeth, Denmark

• Why is it that we are all gathered here at the Euro Show?
Many of us like the competition, only a few because they love to win, quit a lot of us come because we love to party, fewer and fewer because they love to gossip, most of us come because we love to meet each other, some (but there could be more) because they love to see what’s going on in the breed, but we all come because we do love this wonderful breed – The Old English Sheepdog!

• Changes within the Breed – are they the responsibility of the breeders? – the judges?
Tails are changing the outlook and partly the typical movement, also we see more and more judges (and handlers) preferring the fastest possible trot. Is that really typical for this breed? Read the standard – ask yourself.

Conformation is changing. Lack of muscles is not uncommon nowadays. Why is that? Is it because the owners are lazy or maybe because they are frightened to lose the huge Show coat if their dogs are running free?

Coats are not what they were – think for yourself. Don’t we care about a proper coat quality and color anymore, or are we unable to take that into account because there are so many other things we have to look out for like health and conformation

Proper top lines and shoulder are disappearing. Were we not clever enough to teach the youngsters just how important that is for the breed? Today one even hear comment from breeders or judges alike that “this dog has excellent shoulders” – even though it has not. Same happens in most other breeds.

It should be an extremely good idea for all of us to read the breed standard now and then, just as the judges are supposed to do before every single show!

• Responsibility of the breeders
Breeders must be better to work together to preserve this wonderful breed.
Gossiping is old fashioned and leads to nowhere
Being open minded about any problems one might run into is the only way forward and leads to betterment for the breed.
We must back up on any health investigations going on – for a brighter future for the breed.
We have a sound breed with very few problems, but it might not be so in the future if we are not careful, working together and helping each other – and the breed.

• Education
Breeders must be educated.
The community around us demand it.
None of us would use an animal that is severely affected with HD or ED or one that is deaf or blind – but what about things that you cannot measure?
Gene tests are beginning to be developed and along with that carriers can be used safely.
Too close breeding or inbreeding will not be accepted.
Matador breeding will not be accepted.
These methods have been used widely for many years to develop the breeds, and more and more problems are now seen because of that.
Maybe not so much yet in our breed, but we must be careful.
Gene diversity is the most important item in any breed in the future.

Responsibilities and opportunities for Committee members.
By :Eef ter Mors, Holland

• The last 100 years the world is changed faster than ever before. Transport, communication, science etc. There are unprecedented communication possibilities. The committee members can do much more with that than they do today. Today breeders use each other dogs over the whole world. We are sending and receiving sperm from the other side of the world.
• An English and a American Type are no longer exist. They are all mixed up. That means other responsibility’s for committee members.
• Committee members have always look two steps forwards. In this “small world” they cannot look only at there own club. Responsibility for the breed goes further than the own club and country. We, lovers of the breed determine the future of our breed. World is small. We have radio, television, telephone, internet. We all know most every part of the world. With our handy we have the world in our hand. If you can count to 10 you can ring the whole world.

• BREEDSTANDARD
Isn’t time that we have one breed standard for the whole world? Don’t think about problems but believe in it. We all love the same breed and we are the oes-world. It will take perhaps a view years but if we will we can !! One day we will have it. Why not our generation ?? If we are waiting 50 years most of us are death and then that generation will come to the same conclusion that it is better for the breed. Also members of country’s with out a dog ban have to think about a description of the tail. That is a collegial duty. Let’s help each other

• SHARE KNOWLEDGE
It’s high time that committee members of oes-clubs have more contact with each other. We can learn a lot from each other. Problems in one club are already solved in other clubs. Interview each other with the question : How do you do that ? How do you manage that? It will help. In mostof the time it is just a prees on a button.

• QUESTIONAIRE EVERY 5 YEARS
Let’s have a worldwide questionnaire every 5 years, send to all breed specialist in the world, collecting all the actual problems in the breed. It is maybe a good idea for the breed council of the homeland our breed to take initiative for that ? 2010 is a beautiful year to start with that. Every lover of the breed will look forward to that !!!

• JUDGEMENT OF HD STILL DIFFERENT !.
It’s high time that we have the same judgement for HD over the world. Don’t say it is impossible. If we will we can. Let’s write letters to the responsible people of our club. We oes-lovers want that !! And believe me, there are good changes because we are not the only breed who wants that.

• OBLIGED EXAMEN FOR BREED ANIMALS ON ENDANGERMENT DISEASES.
Most of the clubs have different rules for breeding. Let’s work on it. There is still not everywhere an obliged examine for endangerment diseases. Why not? These days diseases don’t stop at the borders.We have at this time the opportunities so why we don’t use it.

• OPEN INFORMATION SOURCES.
There are absolute enough possibility’s. We need an open worldwide data bank for HD, eye diseases etc. Every breeder must have the opportunity to see all result of examinations everywhere in the world. Let’s not wait an other 50 years for an other generation to do that. Come on.

What I have said about responsibility and chances for committees all over the world

• The world is much smaller. The other side is next door!
• Communication around the world is no longer a problem
• We need one breed standard. Start negotiation!.
• A worldwide questionnaire every 5 years.
• Medical examination with same kind of judgement.
• Obliged examine for endangerment diseases.
• Open sources of medical investigations for every breeder.

Be confirmed
Perhaps not now, not yet, but then tomorrow, Let us accustom to that thought that we oes-lovers have to cooperate worldwide much more that we do now!
I am not Obama, but believe me, IF WE WILL WE…………??.

Thank you. Eef ter Mors

Anna

Dziękuję Patrycja za zamieszczenie raportu :) ciekawa lektura się szykuje na urlop :)

KW.

Fajnie, szkoda tylko, że nie w języku polskim

patrycja · Gość

No cóż, materiał po angielsku, bo jak do tej pory to podstawowy język wśród hodowców naszej rasy

Istotne wydają się wyniki ankiety przeprowadzonej wśród hodowców i miłośników rasy oraz sędziów. Pierwsza istotna informacja: 95% ankietowanych jest przeciwnych przyznawania oceny doskonałej pieskom, które są agresywne, tchórzliwe lub wycofane. Problemem większości hodowli są obecnie zęby, włos i coś co określa się mianem "krowich pęcin". Mniejszym problemem jest głębokość klatki piersiowej i pigmentacja i kolor oczu. Kolejna kwestia dotyczy przyznawania ocen doskonałych psom z wadami takimi jak entropia, extropia, 95% badanych uważało, że nie powinno to mieć miejsca. Tyle jeśli chodzi o kwestie biologiczno-genetyczne. Teraz o moim "ulubionym" fryzjerstwie. Otóż 90% jest zdania, że sędziowie powinni karać /brakiem CAC, CACIB, dyskwalifikacją, nie przyznawaniem oceny doskonałej/ wystawców, którzy tworzą naturalną linię psa przy pomocy nożyczek. Innymi słowy: STOP OBCINANIU i PODCINANIU WŁOSÓW w celu nadania psu idelanej sylwetki. Istotna staje się również kwestia stworzenia nowego standardu rasy, chociażby z uwagi na to, że bobtailom wyrosły ogony

Ważne są również sprawy czysto hodowlane takie jak kiedy kryć po raz pierwszy sukę, do jakiego wieku można to robić i ile miotów może mieć suka. Minimalny wiek pierwszego krycia to 2 lata, maksymalny 5 lat. Ostatnie krycie: 7-8 lat. 40% badanych było zdania, że suka nie powinna mieć więcej niż 3 mioty, 30% - 4, 20% - 5. Dalej pojawiają się obowiązki klubów rasy, które powinny dbać o to by ich członkowie doprowadzali na badania stawów biodrowych, oczu itp swoich pupili. No i najistotniejsza chyba sprawa wolnego dostępu do wyników tych badań dla wszystkich hodowców i miłośników rasy. To tak w wielkim skrócie

aggame

Dobrze. To teraz ktos doswiadczony musi mi tutaj cos objasnic, bo nic a nic nie zrozumialam.
Dotyczy to trymowania. Czy dobrze zrozumialam, ze bobtaili nie mozna trymowac? Wcale? A to czemu?
Przeciez kazde kudlate pieski podlegaja fryzjerskiej "obrobce" w mniejszym lub wiekszym stopniu? Nie jestem wystawowym ekspertem, ale nawet na podstawie mojego krotkiego doswiadczenia z Benkiem widze, ze przy dlugim wlosie bez drobnych korekt tu i uwdzie sie zwyczajnie nie da!
Co wlasciciele na to? Przeciez nozyczkami nie zmieni sie prawdziwej sylwetki psa. Co lepsze: wystawowy tapir i tony lakieru czy uczciwe strzyzenie w/g ustalonego wzorca?
Ciekawa jestem waszego zdania na ten temat...

KW.

aggame

Ostatnio rozmawialam z wlascicielka jamnika szorstkowlosego o trymowaniu. To co? One moga, bobtaile nie? Jest chyba mala roznica w jakosci i gestosci wlosa. Nie wyobrazam sobie mojego misia np. za rok.
Podoba mi sie sylwetka z zadkiem lekko podniesionym, ale jak juz ktos napisal w poprzednim watku, bez odpowiednich zabiegow nasze psy beda wygladac jak przerosniete owczarki nizinne.
Kasia ma racje sedziowie maja rece i latwo budowe psa "wybadac".
Ciekawa jestem jaka opinie na ten temat maja sedziowie?

hania

Ja dokładnie nie wiem, na czym polega podcinanie bobtaila wystawowego i, prawdę mówiąc, nie mam pojęcia jak to się przekłada na ogólny wygląd psa

Natomiast fryzury wystawowe bobków nie podobają mi się w ogóle - przyznaję szczerze. I zupełnie nie rozumiem intencji robienia ze slicznych bobków takich wytapirowanych stworzonek, które mi bobków "naturalnych" w ogóle nie przypominjają. Ale to tylko moja opinia.

patrycja · Gość

Wydaje mi się, że jest do przejścia, zależy to tylko i wyłącznie od hodowców, wystawców i sędziów. A sam fakt, że europejscy hodowcy zaczynają na ten temat głośno mówić świadczy o tym, że chęć zmiany jest.
Co do różnic między ponem i bobtailem, to każdy kto kiedykolwiek miał do czynienia przez jakiś czas z nimi potrafi świetnie odróżnić przerośniętego pona od bobtaila i nieuczesanego, średniej wielkości bobtaila od pona.

aggame

Haniu, w zasadzie chyba o to chodzi, zeby rasa przypominala rase, prawda?
Dobrze, ze hodowcy pilnuja wzorca, bo jezeli kupujesz PON-a, to chcesz, zeby nim byl, jezeli bobka- oczekujesz tego samego.
Poprzednia dyskusje o fryzurach przeczytalam chyba z dziesiec razy i byla, jak dla mnie BARDZO ciekawa.

Tez nie wiem, jak wyglada trymowanie wystawowe, ale wydaje mi sie, ze lepsze to i naturalny wyglad pasterski, niz tony lakieru i pies, ktory na wystawie wyglada inaczej, niz ten, ktory gania po domu.
Patrycja ma racje: dobrze, ze sa rozmowy na temat rasy, dobrze, ze sa spory, dobrze, ze sa checi na zmiane.
Ogony to inna sprawa: cudownie, ze sie ich nie obcina, dodaje to psu uroku, mimo, ze moje psisko go nie ma:)

Ania

Nie bardzo rozumiem ? Bez strzyzenia czyli lapy maja zarastac (sam dol stykajacy sie z ziemia) wlosy na pyszczydle tez ? Przeciez przyciecie wlosow nadaje bobtaila wyglad psa nie mowiac o jedzeniu czy blotnych spacerach . Nie podstrzygac tyleczka bezogonastym ? Przeciez to oznacza ciagle brudny zadek . Bob nalezy do dlugowlosych i jesli bym (dokad byl w pelnej szacie) nie przystrzygala wlosow na brzuchu i z dlugosci znosilby wieksze ilosci patykow i bloto po kazdym mokrym spacerze . Jestem jak najbardziej za strzyzeniem - wystawa to pokaz pieknosci a ta nalezy podkreslic a zarosniety rozczesany bobek to bez obrazy kupa futra tylko i nie ma nic wspolnego z wystawa takie jest moje zdanie na ten temat

patrycja · Gość

KW.

patrycja · Gość

Nie obejmuje w tym sensie, że nikt wprost nie napisał, że ogon ma być na 100% - bo jak go nie ma to psa nie ocenimy. Dlatego w raporcie pojawia się kwestia tego kawałka psa.

Co do noszenia, to podobnie jak u innych ras u bobtaili to też jest problem. Teraz może rzadszy niż kiedyś, ale na poczatku kariery ogona pojawiała się cała masa piesków, które swoje ogonki nosiły jak świnki.
Dla mnie w raporcie najistotniejsza jest przede wszystkim kwestia zdrowia i pełnego dostępu do informacji na temat psów. Kwestie fryzjerstwa mam nadzieję same się unormują, bo jak widać pierwsze tego oznaki się pojawiają

hania